Conditional AOV Accepted

I'm shocked I tell ya...shocked.  Was starting to wonder if this day would come. We may soon be the new owners of a Leopard 38.  The current owner accepted our conditions to fix a couple things (replace a leaking transmission cooler and fix a slipping/late engaging transmission) and so we are finally heading into new boat buying territory...we've passed the AOV hurdle and it is on to closing.

Of course as I look out the window and watch the snow fall, I can't help but think of the past years' Corona commercials with the Christmas light decorated palm tree and think...soon.

So, while we work on wrapping up a bunch of odds and ends in preparation for closing on the our boat, I'll leave you with some videos of what increasingly looks like will be our future home afloat...

Sorry if there are some distortions in the videos...YouTube's "fixer" tried it's best to compensate for my rather shaky cell phone video (yeah, it must be the phone...couldn't possibly be me).

The port hull accommodations starting in the forward berth.


From the port hull across the bridge deck to the starboard hull


The starboard hull accommodations starting in the separate shower and moving to the forward berth with private half bath.

The cockpit and swim platform on the back of the boat.

Going To See A Leopard - Day 3

I wake up and look out the window of our hotel room at the surf breaking on the shore. Does it actually look a little better or is it just wishful thinking. My wife opens the door and is happy to report that the winds do seem considerably lighter. Maybe, with any luck, we can get the rest of the survey (the haul out) and sea trial done before we hop on a plane back to Denver later today.

Pete (my broker) makes his way from St. Augustine back to Daytona and Jonathan (my surveyor) heads back up from Ft. Lauderdale. I remember when I was surprised that the survey and sea trial happened on the same day...now I seem to be wishing we actually could get them done in the same day...funny how perspective changes.

We meet at the boat at 11am to move the boat to the boatyard for the haul out. Fortunately, the boatyard is very close, only a 5 or so minute trip. When we get there it looks just like the lift we couldn't fit in with the Leopard in Marathon. I have a quick flashback to that fiasco, but the selling agent confirms that the owner has used this lift on several occasions. We slowly work the boat into position and indeed it does fit...barely. We carefully move the boat into the lift's slip using ropes, poles, and a few fenders. Once again I pay to make a catamaran fly through the air. Unlike the bottoms of the other boats I've surveyed, this one was pretty clean so we forgo the pressure wash.  Jonathan gets out his trusty hammer and does the usual rapping on the hull, listening for the dull thud that indicates possible delamination or water intrusion. Other than one time he hit one of the few barnacles that took up residence on the hull, everything below the water line sounds good. That is welcome news.

We move on to the sea trial portion, which is done in the Ponce inlet since the waves were still in the 7 to 8 foot range just off the beach in the Atlantic...but I really didn't have time for a long sail anyway. Jonathan checks out the engines and finds that they were not producing the expected rpm and the transmission on one seemed to be slipping a bit when engaged. Ugh. There may be simple explanations for these issues...or expensive ones...clearly more investigation is required. We also found that the transmission cooler was leaking water into the bilge when underway...a fact that was confirmed when the very loud bilge alarm went off a few times during the trial (hey, at least the bilge alarm worked).

We quickly run up the sails to inspect them. The genoa looks fine, except the UV protection strip could use replacement. The main looks a bit strange to me as we raise it...seems a bit baggy like it isn't attached to the mast right. Jonathan and my broker both confirm that the sails cars (guides that attach to the front of the mainsail to the mast), specifically the ones at the batten locations, are missing. Really?!?!? The cars that are there are hanked on between the battens and this apparently isn't a typical configuration and may not be suitable for the mainsail.

There are issues with every propulsion option available to this boat...well, unless I get out on the transom and kick. Fortunately these are items that are not too serious and can be resolved...for a price.  The rest of the survey is uneventful.

Overall, the boat is in what I'm learning is just a little below average condition (or by the survey definition I'd call it "fair" condition).  There are a few more serious, safety related items but most are just the usual laundry list of issues found on used boats.  Being an ex charter, the boat is a little bit rougher than average on the cosmetic front but is mostly mechanically sound.  So, as we board the plane back to Denver we have some thinking and some research to do on repair costs while we await the official report from the surveyor. Not a lot of time though, the acceptance of vessel date fast approaches.

Going To See A Leopard 38

Sitting in seat 7A listening to some Jimmy Buffet and taking a trip that is starting to feel like a regular commute, we are flying back to Florida again to inspect and survey another boat. The whole process is starting to feel just a bit too familiar and the thought that we may get past a survey and actually own a boat feels like just a fleeting dream at times.

This trip is a bit different, though. This time we are under contract on a boat we have yet to see in person. All we know of the boat is what is shown in the listing, the videos that Pete our broker sent when he went and took a look at it for us, and our brokers personal report on it's condition. It is another Leopard 38 (a.k.a. Moorings 3800) and this one is an ex charter boat. So, unlike the last one, this one has higher time engines, more nicks and scrapes, and does not have a hard top bimini, water maker, or solar. On the other hand, it appears from the pictures we have seen that this one as been regularly maintained and the systems it has are reported to be in good working order. Oh it also comes with a RIB and motor (a.k.a. the family car).

We land in Orlando, pick up the rental car (no not from Fox, won't rent from them in Orlando again), and make our way to Daytona to meet up with our broker and take our first actual look at the boat. The sales contract has the usual three conditions (personal inspection, survey, and sea trial) and I guess you can count this as part of the personal inspection even though I will want to see it again just prior to closing.

Blue vinyl...easy to clean but seems sticky in warm climates.

We meet Pete at the boat that is sitting behind a private residence near Daytona. We take a very careful look at everything inside and outside the boat. Inside, the boat is a pretty typical Leopard with some less than appealing blue vinyl cushions, a damaged Corian counter top (I've never seen Corian curl before) and damaged refrigerator lid. Other than a few lights, everything we tried worked. Outside is where you could really tell it was an ex charter boat. Numerous dings, scratches and minor cracks. There were numerous gel coat repairs that didn't quite match (likely from arguments with docks that the boat lost) and a few spots where the gel coat was getting pretty thin. The bright sides of the exterior appear to be the condition of the sails (from what we can tell of them sitting in the stack pack) and the somewhat weathered but serviceable dinghy with motor.

An abundance of caulk and the "two tone" gel coat.

Overall, it seems to be a decent boat. Mechanically, it appears to be in better condition than the other Leopard (although we don't know about the engines or generator yet). The detractor is clearly the hull condition that doesn't look the best and the higher time engines. There is one pretty clear repair issue that the surveyor will need to check. At the end of the day, I feel a bit perplexed about the whole thing and I'm not sure why. I think our broker accurately represented the condition of the boat, yet I think...or at least hoped...that it was in a tiny bit better shape cosmetically speaking. I think it may just be my mood though, as I have a bit of a headache and have been functioning with a general lack of sleep.  Or maybe it is our past experiences and I just don't want to get my hopes up again.  I will wait and see how I feel tomorrow.

On an unrelated but amusing note, the fact that the plane had to be deiced leaving Denver and the captain asked us to pull the shades down to help keep the plane cool after we landed in Orlando tells me we are working in a good direction.

Hey Buddy, How Much for That Boat?

In the process of shopping for our future home afloat, this is a very common question on my mind. Of course, the real question I grapple with is "What is that boat worth?" Being a novice boat buyer, I entered into this process not really knowing much about the market.  Having gone through two contracts as well as a couple other offers and a lot of market analysis, I figured it was time for a "what I've learned thus far" on the subject.

Now before you go thinking what I write below is gospel, remember that we only started looking at boats in earnest in April (that's about 6 months ago folks). Also remember that we are shopping for used live-aboard catamarans in the sub $200,000 (US) category. And some of this is rather obvious, but I've found that with all the info swirling around on one's mind, sometimes even the obvious statements are worth mention.

The first thing that I've learned is that every used boat is unique.  They may have looked the same when they rolled off the assembly line, but they were probably unique by the time they were sold and certainly are by the time they are re-sold one or more times. Comparing live-aboard boats is a lot like comparing furnished houses combined with cars.  Each one has unique furnishings and touches, included equipment, as well as different levels of wear...and then they have engines and batteries and other vehicle aspects too.  This makes attempting to determine a reasonable value for a boat a very difficult task. I think most brokers, be it house or boat, learn the standard capitalist answer to the above question...you know...the "it's worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it" answer.  That's great in your college Capitalism 101 course, but doesn't really give you much of a place to start when looking at boats. 

A near "bristol" condition FP Tobago.

We tend to start like we do with houses, looking at comparable sales or "comps" as they are usually called in real estate.  Seems reasonable, but there are a couple problems with it.  First, there are far fewer boats of a given type than there are houses in a neighborhood, so a comp list of recent sales often must go back years instead of weeks or months as you would for a house.  Another issue is the wide variance in condition and equipment. Obviously a former charter boat with minimal 1990's electronic equipment (often not working), original sails and upholstery, etc. would be a far different value than a non-chartered boat of the same age where the owner has updated the equipment and interior as tastes and technologies have changed.  And yet another differentiator is location. If you are lucky enough to find a number of "comps" it is not likely they were sold in the same area in which you are looking. Boats in less tropical climates tend to age better than those subjected to the tropical sun, and this impacts the value.  Boats located in hard to get to remote locations or places people don't really want to spend as much time in tend to sell for less just as boats in hot boating markets or where the supply is limited relative to demand fetch a higher price.

Leopard in fair condition when we saw it.

So, you collect what data you can and try to come up with an average.  What the average boat, in average condition, with average equipment should cost...approximately. As a software engineer with a minor in mathematics, I prefer looking at hard numbers. In my many attempts to figure all of this out, here are some rough guidelines I've found seem to hold true...at least for the catamarans in the price range I've been looking at sold in the United States (this excludes boats in "restorable/salvage" condition, see definition below).

• Boats sell for about 12% less than they are listed on average.
• Boats used in charter take about a 10% hit in price.
• Location can make a 10% difference in price 
• US non-tropical locations near the top
• Remote (harder to get to) tropical locations near the bottom
• The condition of a boat can make about a 30% difference in price (not including salvage).
• 3 years seems to be a reasonable time frame when collecting "comps".
• There is little difference in price between older and newer versions of a given model, prices are mostly based on condition.
• Buying a boat with the equipment you want is cheaper than buying a cheaper boat and adding all the equipment yourself.

As condition has such a large impact on price, it also helps to have a common definition of the condition of a boat.  The following seems to be a pretty "standard" definition of several surveyors and surveyor organizations.

• Excellent/Bristol Condition: A vessel that is maintained in mint condition or "Bristol fashion" – usually better that factory new, loaded with extras (very rare).
• Above Average Condition: A vessel that has had above average care and maintenance and is equipped with extra electrical, electronic, and other gear.
• Average Condition: A vessel that is ready for sale (or ready to sail) requiring no additional work and normally equipped for her size.
• Fair Condition: A vessel that requires typical recurring maintenance to prepare for sale.
• Poor Condition: A vessel that requires substantial yard work (in excess of normal maintenance items) and is devoid of extras.
• Restorable/Salvage Condition: A vessel where enough of the hull and engine exists to restore the boat to usable condition.

So, with this information you can start to get an idea of what you might end up paying for a given catamaran when all is said and done.  Here's an example using a fictitious catamaran:

• You are looking at a 1995 WidgetCat (I told you it was fictitious) in above average condition and started it's life as a charter boat (engines both have 5000 hours).  They are asking $190,000
• Assuming you don't have comps available, you look at the available listings:
• 1993 WidgetCat $220,000
• 1994 WidgetCat $180,000
• 1996 WidgetCat $200,000
• The average asking price is $200,000 so the average sold price is probably around $176,000.
• Since the specific boat is a former charter, expect 10% less than the average.
• Since the specific boat is in above average condition, expect 7.5% more (30% range gives 7.5% per step with average being the starting point).
• So, the final sales price for this 1995 WidgetCat should be about 2.5% below average (10-7.5) or about $171600.

Obviously this works a little better the more accurate data you have, for instance actual sold comps instead of average asking price.  But, hopefully it will give you some idea of where to start.

This isn't any sort of guarantee, and for every rule there is an exception. Also remember I'm of very limited experience in this area...so take this for what it's worth (and for what you paid for this advice :-) ). And, as I stated earlier, every boat is unique.  All of this calculation of averages and estimates are just that, averages and estimates.  I guess the Capitalism 101 answer is ultimately correct...but I hope this helps folks figure out where to start the negotiations.

 So, what do you think?  For those that have purchased boats, does this sound like what you found?  For those just starting to look, does this help any? Anyone out there want to comment on differences with the monohull market or different price ranges? Am I just an engineer trying to apply some order and logic where there obviously isn't any?

If At First You Don't Succeed...

...try, try....try try again, right?  Well, we are yet again under contract on a boat.

So, where we left off we had a decision to make between two very different boats that we like equally for different reasons.  We didn't really have time to go look at these boats having just flown back from Florida after our last failed deal so our broker came to the rescue.  Pete went and looked at the boats for us, taking videos and pictures so we could get a good look at the boats without having to travel back down there on short notice.  Have I mentioned that our agent rocks?  Well, he does.

We review the videos and pictures, and then we review them again.  It was a difficult decision and in the end we were really struggling with it.  Well, while we were trying to decide, the Lagoon went under contract.  So, that pretty much made the decision for us...and we are fine with that.  We put in an offer on the Leopard and after a little negotiation, it was accepted.  Now we need to go actually see the boat in person.

While this Leopard is not quite as well equipped as the other Leopard, it does appear to be better maintained.  In the pictures and videos we were able to see some newer hoses and hardware that, in addition to our broker's comments, leads us to believe that the boat has been regularly maintained.  This was something clearly missing from the last boat.

This boat is not perfect and there are items in need of repair in addition to the refit items we are planning, but our hope is that this one is in better condition than the last one and will put us ahead of the repair curve we would have had with the last one.  So here we go "once more unto the breach"...

Update: Unfortunately I can no longer recommend the broker mentioned in the above post.  Numerous issues arose post-sale that require me, in good faith to my readers, to rescind the recommendation.

The Hunt Continues

Ironically within days of the last deal falling through, in addition to a couple boats that were already on our short list, a couple new listings appeared.  One is a Lagoon 37 and another is a Moorings/Leopard 3800. This actually made for a bit of a dilemma...as we really seem to like both boats and can't decide which one to pursue.

vs.

The Lagoon 37 was at the top of our list for a while as we like the amount of space, the configuration of the bunks and the amount of storage.  After giving up on finding a decent Lagoon 37 and looking at the Leopard, we really liked the separate shower, galley up design and layout of the cockpit of it.  It seems for each pro or con we come  up with for one boat, we come up with one for the other boat.  As many people often say, all boats are a compromise...unfortunately it seems that, while each of these boats is very different, they each come up equal to one another in our eyes when all the dust settles.

Funny how life works sometimes, isn't it?

Strike Two

Well, it doesn't look like we will be reaching an agreement on the Leopard 38 "Catzpaw" that we had under contract.  There is just too much work that needs to be done to this neglected boat to justify the price that the owner wants.

When we put the offer in on the boat we took into account the things we knew about that needed work plus a little for unknowns for a boat that has been obviously sitting neglected for a year or more. Tape on two windows and a hatch were obvious indications that they were leaking and needed to be rebed. Hull damage from what appears to be a scuffle with a dock.

Taped window and hatch

Impact with a dock?

We were told the house battery bank was not doing well and would likely need replacement (an understatement, they wouldn't hold enough charge to run the chart plotter alone). Various light fixtures were broken, one of the AC units didn't work, and there were other odds and ends that needed work. The gel coat was in poor condition from baking in the sun for a long time without so much as a wax, and the fact there was a marine sanctuary growing on the boat bottom made the neglect rather obvious. But despite all of this we liked the boat and were willing to give the boat the love it had been missing to bring it back to reasonable condition, so we took these factors into account and made an offer that we believed was more than fair given the typical price range for these boats is $150K ~ $175K.

Well, along came the survey and we found that far more than we anticipated was wrong.  There were 51 items listed in the findings and recommendation section of the survey. The diesel generator would not work and had enough wrong with it that the surveyor highly recommended replacement ($8K), The water maker that was supposed to be pickled but was not and pumps were inoperative ($5K), the windlass would not carry a load when we tried using it ($4K), and the electric winch was inoperative ($3.5K).  That's over $20k just to replace the top 4 items found during the inspection.  Add in the non-functional refrigerator, seized through hulls, various electrical problems and everything else that needed work and it came out to over $32K in parts and labor to replace everything that was found that we weren't expecting to find (the total refit cost we estimated was between $60K and $70K including these new items).

We decided that we would split the difference on that $32K, an offer our broker said was more than generous. Our hope was that we could do much of the work ourselves and perhaps repair or find used and serviceable parts to help lower the cost. We are also getting a bit tired of going through all of this process just for the deal to collapse and that has a bit of value itself.  So our broker went back asking for a concession at time of closing to cover half of the cost of the stuff we did not know about that was found on the survey.

I don't know if sellers have way too much emotion tied up in their boats that they can't see the true market value, if they are wearing the rose-colored glasses I mentioned in the previous post and see the boat as it was when they bought it and don't see how time and their neglect have reduced it's value (I think the listing from when the current owner bought the Leopard can be found here) or what the reasons are that some owners have over-inflated sense of worth of their boats, but in this case, the seller was only wiling to concede $5K.  That is less than 1/10th of what we believe the boat needs, one sixth of what it might cost to fix the items we did not know about and 1/3 of what we asked in concessions.  Needless to say, that is not going to happen. So much for being generous.

I'm starting to wonder if people selling their catamarans have been out baking in the sun too long (much like some of their boats). I'm also starting to feel a bit bad for my broker.  I know he put a lot of work into trying to make this deal happen and neither of us can believe that this is happening again. Well Pete, what did you once say to me..."they are always making plastic boats and another one is right around the corner."

And on that note, a new boat has come on the market that we might be interested in. The owner of the Tobago we saw during our last shopping trip has also reduced his price and, unlike this one, was an obviously well cared for boat. So, the shopping continues...

Leopard 38 Video

Ok, one last set of videos for now.  This is the Leopard 38 we have under contract.

This is the port hull starting in the forward berth (the beds are almost chest high), passing through the mid-ship head and on to the aft berth (which sits lower and seems just a bit larger than the forward one).


The bridge deck moving from port side where the galley is (the refrigerator is top loading under the counter on the starboard side of the U), moving across to the starboard salon side.


Finally, the starboard hull starting in the separate shower stall aft (which includes a sink but no head) then moving forward to the berth that contains a "half-bath" head .



Well, that's the quick video tour of the interior. Hopefully the survey and sea trial go better than the last one.  We know there are some relatively minor issues that need to be addressed (a couple ports/windows need to be re-bed), but hopefully there isn't anything structural or mechanical lurking behind the scenes. Keeping our fingers crossed.

Boat Shopping - The Videos

In my last post, I asked if anyone would be interested in seeing some of the videos I took of various boats during our shopping trips.  There were more than a couple people that replied to either the post or via email that they would like to see anything I had.

So, fair warning...these are not the greatest quality, just shaky cell phone videos with some rather abrupt cuts.  This is also my first experiment with YouTube. I tried using some of the YouTube tools to stabilize a couple of them, but that left other artifacts in the video so I only did that with a couple of them. Please keep in mind that these are completely unstaged.

Lagoon 37

This first set is of the Lagoon 37 that I put an offer in on back in the spring.  The galley layout is not the standard for this boat. The interior video starts with the head located at the rear of the starboard hull, moves through the galley to the Starboard berth, across the bridge deck salon and on to the port forward berth, finally backtracking to the rear port berth.

PDQ 36

This starts in the starboard forward berth, moves down the starboard hull to the head in the rear of that hull.  Then across the bridge deck to the galley in the port hull.  From there it moves forward into the port berth and then back to the port rear quarter berth/storage area.

Fountaine Pajot Tobago 35

I started breaking up the videos here to make them easier to review. So you'll have one for each hull and one for the bridge deck between them. The first one starts in the head in the rear of the port hull and goes to the master berth port forward.

Then a quick pass thru the salon and galley on the bridgedeck from port to starboard.

This one starts in the starboard forward berth.


So, there you have it.  A quick video tour of 3 of the boats we've seen during some of our shopping trips.  I've got one more boat to show you...but six videos in one post seems like a lot so we'll save the other for another post.

Let me know what you think.

Lessons Learned - Shopping and Video

Continuing with the idea of occasionally posting "things we've learned thus far" here is a tip we figured out while looking at a bunch of boats.

After our first boat shopping trip, one of the things we quickly discovered was that we had a hard time remembering details about the boats we saw one after another.  So, after our first trip, we decided that we need some better means of remembering.  I thought perhaps it would be helpful to start taking videos.

I started using my cell phone to take video of the interior and exterior of the boats we thought we were more interested in.  T hese were far from professional grade cinematography, just shaky panning around rooms and wandering through the boats.  But it did what we wanted and found it helped jog memories about details.

I also found it did a bit more.  We've been able to go back to the videos to answer questions that we had later.  It's very handy when you are no longer near the boat in question.

So, if you go shopping for a boat, try taking a video that pans around to explore the space.  It doesn't have to be excessively slow or a long filming, but anything captured you may find handy when you have that lingering question in the back of your mind.

I also have a question to ask of you. Would you be interested in seeing the videos I've taken of some of the boats?  As I've said, they are just shaky cell phone videos, but if there is enough interest I'd be willing to annotate them and remove/replace the audio tracks so they could be posted.  Leave a comment and let me know if you would be interested in seeing them.

Another Shopping Trip (Part 3)

Part 1 can be found here, part 2 is here.

So as we ate an overpriced lunch at the marina in Miami (remind me not to hang out much in Miami...not that I was planning to...but it definitely isn't cruiser budget friendly), we decided to put in an offer on...the Leopard 38.

As I mentioned, it needs a bit of work. The Leopard can use some cosmetic and minor repairs but nothing like the Lagoon 37 we were under contract on back in the spring. Of course back then we didn't think there was too much work on that one but I trust my surveyor will find anything that may be amiss. So we came up with a number we feel is fair based on our initial impression of the condition and sent it in that afternoon. Now the wait for a response begins.

Earlier today, even though we submitted an offer on the Leopard (it hasn't been accepted yet and if I've learned anything from this experience, it is that anything can happen up until closing with a deal), we took a look at a Privelege 41 (which our broker says is very similar to a 39 that we might be interested in but didn't have time to drive all the way from the Keys to Pennsicola to see).

These boats are well appointed and have an absolutely huge cockpit. The thing I don't like is the location of the helm. It is positioned over the hull and almost all the way back against the transom. It is exposed and seems to me to be a bad place to be in all but the calmest of seas. The idea of standing or sitting on the very back of the boat on a night watch in rough seas scares me a bit.

One thing I apparently haven't completely learned is how to do a thorough initial inspection of a boat. And that is why we are currently on the Palmetto Expressway heading back to the Keys. It seems a day later we always come up with one or two things we wished we had looked at but for some reason did not. Guess I need to come up with a checklist if we need to do any more shopping.

Going back to the boat with a more critical eye helped though. It solidified that we think this is a nice, well laid out boat that would make a good live-aboard. It also reminded us of a couple issues with the boat and gave us a second/better chance for inspection. I opened up a couple of the access panels that I missed the last time (and thankfully found nothing bad of note), we talked a bit more with the selling agent about Leopards, and verified that the electronics are working.

Here are a couple additional pictures from the Leopard:

So, now we wait to hear back on our offer.

Another Shopping Trip (Part 2)

Picking up where I left off in the first post on this trip...

After spending some time on the Leopard, we then worked our way back up the Keys to Key Largo to see a Lagoon 37 that has been for sale for a little while.

We had actually put an offer in on this boat, sight unseen, a couple months ago. The owner countered and we decided that we should see it before going any further. We are glad we did as I think it saved us from an offer higher than it should have been. We really like the design of these boats, it is a shame there aren't more around in better condition and I'm increasingly feeling that we don't want too much of a project for our first big boat. I guess what we really want is a brand new Lagoon 37...with the shoal draft option...but I checked with my broker and he doesn't have a time machine so we appear to be out of luck.  So, at the end of day one we have one contender and one scratched off the list.

The next day, we continued our migration north where we looked at a Fountaine Pajot Tobago 35 in Miami.

This was a nice and obviously well cared for boat. Of the Tobagos that are currently available, this is probably the pick of the litter. This was the three berth, one head version. Inside this boat was about as close to immaculate as any we have seen...a far cry from the other Tobago that had a rotting orange left in the sink when we saw it (not that the other boat was bad...just not cleaned up). Since I've covered the model before I won't go through the whole description and will only note the differences between the first one and this one.  As the 3 berth layout, the second head was replaced by a less than queen width third berth that sits down in the aft hull. One nice feature this boat had was a roller furling screecher (light wind sail) on a bowsprit.

Since our broker did not accompany us to see the Tobago in Texas, this was his first time looking at a Tobago in person. One thing he noted that we didn't think of was that the sink appeared a bit small to wash a full sized plate in. Now why hadn't we noticed that. He did admit the boat had more room than he had expected.

While driving to Miami to see the Tobago, my wife and I discussed the difficulties we've been having finding a Lagoon 37 in reasonable shape. I know that there are some nice Lagoon 37s out there, but the ones that have been on the market recently seem to be overpriced or, in many cases, in rough shape for the price. After seeing the Tobago we came to the realization that there are nice boats out there in our price range that we believe we could easily live on and that trying to hold out for a Lagoon 37 that is in decent shape and properly priced is probably not worth the time lost waiting or our perceived minor advantages of that design over some of the others.

So, what do we do?  Find out in part 3.

Another Shopping Trip And Trying Something New

Sorry about the lack of posts lately but sailing/cruising related subject matter has been in short supply. We've been waiting (hoping) for new boats to come on the market and then with the passing of my father-in-law a lot of additional work has resulted (if you want to hear about Colorado probate, updating an old home to sell, etc. let me know).

While you won't see this until I'm back home, I figured I'd try something new and at least start writing the post using my tablet while on the road. Yes, we are currently missing all the flooding in Colorado because we are in Florida boat shopping again. In fact the pilot on our plane when we departed said the airport closed just a little while after we took off from Denver. I do hope everyone is ok there. Unless the "news" is exaggerating (I'm sure that never happens), it sounds like we may be able to sail a boat back there after all.

Right now we are driving down the Palmetto expressway heading for the Keys for the second time in three days to take a second look at a boat we just put an offer in on. Glad this rental car has unlimited miles. Guess I should back up a couple of days here...

We arrived in Ft Lauderdale on a red-eye flight late Tuesday...or was it very early Wednesday. After a few hours of sleep at a hotel near the airport, we drove down to Marathon to meet our broker Pete and start our current boat shopping trip. A bit sleep deprived, our first contestant was a Leopard 38/Moorings 3800. I was looking forward to seeing this boat as we had yet to see one.

The Leopard is a South African design and for the length is a bit beamier than the competition of similar length. I've been a bit worried about bridge deck height but it seemed ok to me at 18"(at the escape hatch in the rear of the salon...more as it moves forward)...but what do I really know. Designed primarily for the charter market, this boat has three berths and two heads...all within the 38 (or is it 37) feet of length as well as a galley up design.

Starting outside, the Leopard 38 has a good size cockpit with a standard "al fresco" dining table. There is a small companionway that leads to a nice swim platform that stretches between the transoms. Moving forward there is good (wide) access to the foredeck on either side of the salon roof. Trampolines up front with pulpit seats on each hull. The anchor drops from a locker situated behind the trampolines and I wonder if access would be an issue if the ground tackle were ever fouled.

Stepping inside, there is a nice U shaped settee and U shaped galley in the salon. While galley up designs all seem significantly smaller than galley down designs, we were pleasantly surprised with the apparent usability of the space in the galley here. I guess the added beam of the South African designs does have some creature comfort advantages. The fabric patterns on the upholstery would not be my first choice, but were in reasonable condition.

The starboard hull contains two almost queen sized berths with a small wet head (bathroom is the shower) amidships. The bunks in both berths lie perpendicular to the hull and seem to have reasonable storage space. The forward bridge deck height makes for a bit of a climb to get in the forward bunk. The head reminds me of the Fountaine Pajot Athena's midship heads...workable but small. The port hull contains a forward berth that includes a private half-bath, midship is a mostly useless dressing table, and a nice large separate shower stall in the back. According to the selling agent, the owners berth is actually the rear berth in the starboard hull instead of the berth forward in the port hull. A bit strange but that rear berth is slightly larger than the two forward ones.

I was pleasantly surprised to find that this boat has straight shafts instead of sail drives (a feature I particularly like in the Lagoon 37). While it does place the engine further forward in the living space (which has pros and cons itself), my understanding is that continuing maintenance will likely be much cheaper with the straight shaft. It also has skeg mounted rudders which I prefer to a less protected configuration. Overall, we liked the boat but it does need a bit of work.

Wow, this is getting to be long and that is only the first boat...guess I'll need to continue this in a part 2.  How's that for a cliff hanger?

What We've Learned Thus Far - Boat Brokers

I wish I had more interesting things to write about right now...like all the tasks of refitting a boat...but alas we are still searching for the right boat.  We have a lead on one, but nothing will happen with it until October at the earliest and, until we have one purchased, we will continue to search.  In the meantime, I've been slowly working my way through the generous gift of books from my friends at The Retirement Project (btw: really excited for them right now, they are moving their boat to the coast to start their new life).

Some of the books I probably should have read before we started shopping for a boat.  The "Cruising Catamaran Communique" was a bit dry but provided some good information on what to look for in a catamaran and how to interpret some of those confusing specification numbers.  The book I'm reading now, "The Essentials Of Living Aboard a Boat", chronicles what one guy learned in his first live-aboard boat purchase.  His early experiences and thoughts got me thinking about what we've learned thus far in the boat buying process.  Then I wondered if it might be fun  to periodically touch upon the highlights of what we've learned thus far. So here goes...the first installment...

Boat Brokers

When we first started looking at boats and were searching all the usual places (like Yachworld and Sailboatlistings), I wrote a post about the pain of trying to shop for a boat from Colorado.  Just a few people had found our blog at that point, and one suggested we try to find a buyers broker. Seems like a pretty obvious recommendation, doesn't it...so why hadn't I thought of it? We used a realtor when we bought our first house, so it would seem to make sense to do the same for our first on-the-water home. While we may pay a bit more for a boat to help cover the commission the broker(s) receive compared to a "for sale by owner" sale, what we would hopefully get in return is someone to help us newbies with finding the right boat as well as guiding us through the process.  Since we are so far from the ocean, having "boots on the ground" in a market where boats were actually available hopefully would help us pre-qualify options and reduce the number of wasted trips to see boats that wouldn't suit us.

One thing I didn't think would be a problem would be finding a broker.  The economy isn't that great, so finding someone who wanted to pocket 5~10% of a $100 to 200 thousand dollar purchase shouldn't be that hard, right? Well, apparently most catamaran brokers must be immune to the effects of the economy as we had a hard time initially finding one.  We searched online for broker recommendations and sent out a number of introductory emails, but got few responses. We did receive a response from a broker at the St. Petersburg location of The Catamaran Company when we asked about a specific boat he had for sale.  When we asked if he would like to act as our buyers agent, he became unresponsive for a time, blew off a scheduled call with us, and then finally passed us on to another Catamaran Company broker out of St. Augustine.  We are glad he did!

Within a day of receiving the email that we were being passed on to a different broker (apparently we weren't worthy of the St. Petersburg broker's time...at least that is the feeling we got), we were contacted by Pete Gulick from the St. Augustine office.  We quickly set up a time for a call to "get the ball rolling".  He called right on time (a refreshing change) and we discussed what we thought we were looking for.  We later set up a trip to see a variety of boats he thought might fit our desires and to help us narrow down our options.  Since that time, he has worked tirelessly to find us a boat and filter out the "lemons" so we weren't wasting a lot of time looking at boats that just wouldn't work for us.

While we don't have a boat yet, it has definitely not been for a lack of Pete's trying to find the right boat for us.  It is just plain difficult when there were only 50 or so boats of your top model choice that were ever made.  In fact, when a "for sale by owner" boat popped up that looked like it might be a really good fit for us, he was the first to suggest that we should pursue it and said he would be happy to help answer questions and provide suggestions. I think he has a good balance of providing help and suggestions to novice buyers without being overbearing or pushy.  He seems genuinely interested in getting his customers the right boat for them and not just what gets him the biggest paycheck.  A very welcome change from the stereotypical used car salesman type you might expect.

So, What have we learned so far when it comes to boat brokers?

• While brokers are paid by the seller out of the proceeds of the sale, a buyers broker should have your best interest at heart.  Be wary if the broker is only interested in selling you his listings (they get both the buyer's and seller's portion of the commission that way).
• A buyers broker seems to be a very good idea for a novice boat buyer as they should help guide you through the process, paperwork, etc.
• A buyers broker is even more important if you don't live, or plan on spending every weekend, in a location where the types of boats you are looking for are available.
• A broker has access to some resources not available to the public and can provide things like the selling prices of similar boats (what the real estate profession often refers to as "comps"). [updated]
• Finding a good buyers broker can take time and persistence.  Don't settle for one that isn't 100% in your corner.  For all the bad ones, there are good ones out there.
• Not all brokers for a given company are the same, judge each one on their individual merits.
• So far, Pete Gulick at The Catamaran Company in St. Augustine rocks!

UPDATE: Sadly, I can no longer recommend Pete Gulick (and can't say I could ever actually recommend the Catamaran Company).  A number of issues have arisen post sale that cause me to rescind the recommendation.  I apologize to anyone that may have taken my recommendation and used their services with less than satisfactory results.

New Leads From an Unexpected Source

A few weeks ago I finally managed to post a question to the Cruisers Forum asking for any thoughts regarding what we consider our top two choices for "our boat".  There were some interesting comments, so if you are interested in the Fountaine Pajot Tobago or Lagoon 37, click the link above and check them out.

It seems that the overall consensus was that either boat would be a good option.  Each has pros and cons and it is a very close race in our minds even though the boats are fairly different configurations.  In the end I think we really prefer the Lagoon.

One thing that I didn't expect from my post was to be contacted by a couple of people that owned boats and wanted to sell them and both were Lagoons.  Now ideally we would like to buy a boat that is in the US as it makes the logistics much easier, but both were in the Caribbean. Since we are not finding one in the US, I guess we do need to "broaden  our horizon".

 I had seen the first boat listed on a for sale by owner web site.  I contacted the owner by email and they sent me a couple links to more pictures of the boat.  None of the pictures were high detail and it was unclear when they were taken, so while the boat seemed it could fit the bill, I could not really assess the condition.  Given the advertised price, I assumed the boat would require some work and was curious what it was.  So, I sent another email and asked the owner if they could provide more details about the boat including their assessment of it's condition so neither of us would waste traveling to see it just to find out it wasn't the level of project I was comfortable with.  Unfortunately, instead of getting responses to my questions, the owner decided it was unlikely the boat would work for me. Oh well, I guess if he changes his mind we could pick up the conversation where we left off.

The owner of the second boat left his phone number, so I gave him a call.  We had a nice conversation about his Lagoon and got the impression that this boat was in very good (or to use the proper sailing term "Bristol") condition.  He sent me a number of pictures including some higher resolution ones that support my impression of it's condition.  Of course, this does come at a price.  It is the highest price of any Lagoon I've seen by a pretty fair margin but may well be worth it.  I don't really want to say much more about this boat at this time...but hopefully we are coming one step closer to our new home on the water.

If you've been following for long, you may recall that I was working with a broker.  When I told him about the second boat, he said "go for it" knowing that he may be out a commission because he knows how difficult it has been finding a good Lagoon.  How's that for integrity.  I'm trying to figure if there is a way to keep him in the deal where I would pay his fee without breaking the bank.  I really need to write another post about our broker as he has been great to work with. But for now if you happen to be looking for a decent and honest boat broker that will help you with any size of catamaran purchase, you might want to give Pete Gulick at the Catamaran Company a call.

Update: Unfortunately I can no longer recommend Pete (and never really could recommend the Catamaran Company and its affiliates).

A Little Progress

Feeling much better after the little medical issue (well, except for the whole health insurance thing and what "The Affordable Healthcare Act" may or may not mean...still need to research that).  We are pushing along on a couple fronts, but progress has been limited.

Having done a fair amount of looking at various boats, we definitely like the Lagoon 37 and the Tobago 35.  We think we would prefer the Lagoon 37 as it is just a bit larger and has better storage options, particularly in the galley.  Unfortunately, there are very few of them on the market right now. We do have a couple leads we are pursuing so hopefully there will be some good news to report in the near future.

Realizing that we haven't sailed a boat in over 6 months, we did manage to remedy that this weekend.  We rented one of our Colorado sailing school's J/22 boats (the same boats we used during the ASA 101 and 103 courses) for a half day to help knock the rust off of our basic sailing skills. No, it's not a catamaran and is far smaller than anything we can live aboard, but it is the right size for the reservoirs around here.

It took us a bit longer to get the boat setup than it did the last time we were on one, but things came back to us fairly quickly.  Can't say the winds were any better than in the past, over the course of 4 hours we saw everything from 0 to 20 knots from numerous directions.  It is probably a good thing that it started out on the calmer side.  We were able to practice a number of the basic maneuvers.  After the winds picked up and seemed to be sticking around, we decided to tuck a reef in the main.  Knock a little more dust off of old memories and we got the reef in...so of course the wind dies down about a minute later...and we get to practice shaking out the reef.

We get back to the dock, get fenders deployed and dock lines set and docking the boat went off without a hitch.  Almost looked like we knew what we were doing...almost.  I'm sure no one noticed that I probably should have started with the stern dock line instead of the bow one (they like us to enter the slip bow first).  But no fiberglass was chipped or paint was scratched and only the fenders touched the dock so it went well.  Overall, other than a few glitches that were to be expected, we met our goal and had some fun in the process.

Now if we can only find "our" boat.

The Fountaine Pajot Tobago 35

The Thursday evening before the US Memorial Day weekend, on a whim, we decided to check out airfare to each of the locations where a Tobago was for sale.  Imagine our surprise when we found that we could get tickets to see one of the boats for as little as $68 each way(1).  So first thing Friday I call our broker to see if there was any chance that a broker could show us the boat last minute on a holiday weekend.  A broker would indeed be available so we quickly setup a trip and were off to see a Tobago.

Boarding the Tobago is via the familiar "sugar scoop" transom steps on each hull.  They are a tad steeper than the Lagoon 37, but very workable.  The cockpit is decently sized with wrap around seating and is covered by a fabric bimini. The helm is on the right side with a raised seat.  Visibility at the helm is a bit restricted due to the bimini height (or lack thereof). Access to the foredeck is excellent with wide walkways.  The anchor locker is divided into two spaces with a fair amount of storage for other items.  The boat does lack a separate dedicated propane locker (and shut off solenoid).

The salon has a curved table with wrap-around seating.  It is a galley up design, and the dedicated kitchen space is fairly small.  The salon table is close enough that it can effectively become part of the kitchen.  There is only a single basin sink but there is a recessed area moulded into the counter that contains a drain that might be usable  for some tasks if you can get water over to it.  The refrigerator is front-loading but more spacious than it appears from the door.  There is no freezer.  The views are very nice with wrap-around windows.  Ventilation seems adequate with two forward facing hatches, a small hatch over the oven, and the sliding door to the cockpit.

Down in the forward part of the port hull is the master berth and an optional single berth or additional storage space.  The bed sits across the hull and up on the bridge deck and is queen size on one end but does taper down to 3' 4" at the other end (and there is an overhang for a small part of that). The optional single berth is accessed through a door over the bed or via a hatch from outside and sits in the forward V of the hull.  There is a large storage cubby under the bed, otherwise there is not a lot of storage in the stateroom. While I've seen pictures of these boats with doors, this one actually had roll-up vinyl fabric for the doors.

In the back of the port hull is the primary head.  It lacks a separate shower, but is a decent size for an integrated shower head.  Behind the head is the engine room which contains the battery banks, a good amount of storage, and of course the engines with decent room to work.

This boat was the two head version, so the starboard hull was very similar except the double berth runs along the hull and sits down in the hull so the bed dimension 4' 6" at the larger end and tapers slightly down to 4' at the narrower end and the  optional single berth sits forward of that.  The head and engine room are the mirror image except there are no batteries in that engine room. In the 3 stateroom version, the head is replaced with a berth that sits over the engine.

So, we've now seen both the Lagoon 37 and the Tobago 35.  And...we're torn.  Both boats are nice and have good aspects and bad ones.  In general a 35 foot boat should be cheaper to maintain than the 37 (bottom paint, dock fees, etc.). The Lagoon staterooms are a bit larger with more hanging space. The Tobago is supposed to be a better performing boat than the Lagoon, especially in lighter air.  The galley space in the Lagoon is better with a built in freezer.  The Tobago is a newer boat and more expensive (my broker has proven that the asking price of the Tobago's currently on the market are all well above the comps). The list goes on.

What to do...what to do...

(1) Being a pilot and understanding the plight of the professional airline pilot, I really don't like to brag about cheap fares.  I'd much prefer a capable captain that knows what to do when things go wrong.  Of course these days does the money go to the pilot or the company.  Fortunately Southwest does pay it's pilots better than average so I guess I can live with that.

Maybe a Fountaine Pajot is the Answer?

So, while I was in Ft. Lauderdale I looked at a Fountaine Pajot Athena 38.  It was a nice boat.  But 4 berths and 2 heads seemed like a bit more than we really need.  While they say that all boats are a compromise, when we add in the fact that the heads are smaller than the coat closet in our house, I'm just not sure that the Athena is the best choice for us as a permanent live aboard.

Fortunately, Fountaine Pajot makes a number of boats of various sizes.  So, having seen the appeal of the maker, we decided to take a look at other models.  Back at the Annapolis Sailboat Show, we got to see the Mahe 36 Evolution.  Of the catamaran models at the show, this was one of our favorites (not that we had any idea what we were looking for at that time...or even that we were going to go with a catamaran).  The only negatives I recall were the berths seemed to lack a bit of shoulder space due to their position down in the hulls and the helm seat was molded into the bimini top (out in the weather).  Of course the Mahe is a newer model, in current production, and is a bit out of our price range.

The predecessor of the Mahe is the Tobago 35.  Just like the Mahe 36 they come in a 2 berth, two head version as well as the 3 berth, single head model.

From what I can tell, this boat has a good amount of space in the cockpit and good access above deck.  They seem to typically have a soft-top bimini, but it does cover the helm station which is a plus.  Inside the salon and galley up design that is typical of FP makes for a decent size table and the usual small galley. Down in the hulls you find the berths and heads.

The interesting thing I see is that one of the berths is turned sideways and is up on the bridge deck.  I'm hoping this would make this berth a bit wider than those down "in the hulls".  The floor plan show that it might be angled (or is that just a cut-away view), and if so, I wonder how much. The head (or heads if the 2&2 version) appear to be larger than those on the Athena, which I think would help make this a more livable configuration for us.  The Fountaine Pajot's are known for being more performance oriented than the Lagoon and, with just over a foot less draft, it should be able to get us into more interesting locations as well.  The big question here is if the berth and galley is enough space for us.  This one definitely has potential.

During my research on the boat I ran across a blog of a couple and their two dogs cruising on a Fountaine Pajot Tobago.  Could it be a sign that this is the right boat for us? Unfortunately there are only a few of these boats currently for  sale, and based on comparable sales numbers, they are overpriced.  Here's another one of those cases where it really sucks to be 1000 miles from an ocean.  It will be another trip just to see one, if it doesn't sell before we get there.  Guess we need to figure out how to go see one of these sometime soon.

New Option

So, what do you do when a boat survey goes bad, your broker is unavailable, and you have  another day before your flight home?  Well, after an unsuccessful attempt to change to an earlier flight, I started looking through the listings on Yachtworld and SailboatListings.  Maybe I could get lucky and there would be a boat or two in the area that I could go look at...I am in Ft. Lauderdale after all.

So, I do a little searching and find a couple different boats I could go see.  One is a Fountaine Pajot that I haven't seen in person and would like to.  Of course, it isn't in Ft Lauderdale, it's a couple hours away.  Oh well, the rental car has unlimited mileage right?  So, I give the listing agent a call and managed to get a time setup to see the boat later that day.  So off on a small road trip to see a Fountaine Pajot Athena 38.

Now my preconceptions of the Fountaine Pajot boats were that they are a typical French design that is aimed more at the charter market.  It's galley up and the galley seems small and even the smaller cats typically have 4 berths and two heads.  Instead of the beds being on the bridge deck, the Fountaine Pajot's typically have them down in the hulls.

What I found was that the galley up design allows the salon table to be effectively used as part of the kitchen so the less counter space shouldn't be as much of a concern.  They have a well designed cockpit with lots of space.  The berths are down in the hulls and seem large enough but the access from the end just feels a bit strange to me...however I guess either my wife or I could get up with less chance of disturbing the other.  I also liked how wood was used more as an accent than the main internal building structure.  It gives the boat a clean look and I bet it is easier to clean and maintain as well.  The one down side was that, while it had two heads, they are very small.

The Fountaine Pajot boats draw less than the Lagoon (for my non-sailing friends - it can handle shallower water) and are known to be a bit more of a "performance" sailing boat.  Overall I like the Athena and I think it puts Fountaine Pajot's back on the list...if I can get past the idea of living full time with a very small head.  So, even though the survey didn't result in a boat for us, it did lead us to another option that we need to seriously consider.

Did We Really Just Put an Offer in on a Boat?

Catching back up to the present...

On our flight back from Florida we had a lot of thinking to do.  When we were actually looking at the Lagoon, we were in "evaluating the model" mode more than "evaluating this particular boat" mode. After rushing off to see what we thought was our top contender (the PDQ 36) and the PDQ 32, we now wish we had spent a bit more time on this particular Lagoon.

As I had mentioned, it is a bit more of a project than we anticipated for our first boat.  I don't think any of the projects are particularly difficult, but it isn't the "ready to cruise" variety either.  Having been a prior charter boat, the engines have about 5000 hours on them and with unknown maintenance practices may be an issue.  While the main sail is newer, the head sail and spinnaker are currently unknown to us as they were not on the boat at the time (but does have a new roller furling system).  There are a number of small dings in the gel coat and some work in the interior (completing the installation of a new headliner, replacing the cabin sole in the galley, and fixing or replacing some of the galley cabinetry) to take care of.  Several hatches need new friction hinges, the bed cushions require replacement and the salon cushions are worn vinyl and could use new upholstery.

So, after much thought and consideration of the issues and our desires and my abilities, we decided to put in an offer that would give us enough  cushion on the price to bring her to good condition.  We received a counter offer from the owner that was acceptable to us, so we are now under contract.

If you would like to see the listing for the boat, you can find it on YachtWorld here (at least as long as it remains in their database).

Soon we will be heading back to Florida for the survey and sea trial (and trust me, I will be looking over the boat very carefully...as will the inspector I hope). Definitely feeling both nervous and excited at this point. If everything checks out, we may soon have our next home.