Acceptance Of Vessel

The Acceptance Of Vessel, or AOV, date is an important one in the boat buying contract thing.  This is the point by which the conditions listed in the original contract should be met and the buyer informs the seller that they will accept the vessel and complete the contract as-is, will conditionally accept the vessel based on findings from the personal inspection/survey/sea trial (basically a renegotiation option), or reject the vessel and cancel the contract (without loss of the deposit).  It is where we are now with the current boat we have under contract.

On the first boat we had under contract, we rejected the vessel.  We knew that boat would have been a bit of a project boat going in, but the large number of expensive items found (including structural issues) made it more of a project than I, as a first time buyer, was willing to tackle.

The second boat we had under contract, we submitted a conditional acceptance of vessel on at this stage.  During the survey, over $32K worth of issues were found that we did not anticipate (the total list of stuff to fix was between $60K and $70K) .  We asked for a credit at time of closing to cover 50% of the unanticipated items (many of them were broken systems that should have been disclosed ahead of time when we asked if there were any known issues with the boat). The seller wasn't willing to meet us half-way and the previously agreed upon price was higher than we were willing to pay for a boat that needed all that work, so the conditional acceptance of vessel became a rejection of vessel at that time.

With the current boat there were about $12K worth of items we did not anticipate (and a total of $42K). There are only a couple issues that I would consider critical (water leaking into the boat is considered critical...right?) and would like to have them fixed, so we are again submitting a conditional acceptance of vessel asking that the items be fixed.  It isn't a big or expensive list (maybe 15% of the unanticipated stuff) but I want the boat ready to be moved when we close so it is critical to us. We are submitting the Conditional AOV today.

Hopefully this seller will see that this is more than fair and we will finally have our boat.

Going To See A Leopard - Day 3

I wake up and look out the window of our hotel room at the surf breaking on the shore. Does it actually look a little better or is it just wishful thinking. My wife opens the door and is happy to report that the winds do seem considerably lighter. Maybe, with any luck, we can get the rest of the survey (the haul out) and sea trial done before we hop on a plane back to Denver later today.

Pete (my broker) makes his way from St. Augustine back to Daytona and Jonathan (my surveyor) heads back up from Ft. Lauderdale. I remember when I was surprised that the survey and sea trial happened on the same day...now I seem to be wishing we actually could get them done in the same day...funny how perspective changes.

We meet at the boat at 11am to move the boat to the boatyard for the haul out. Fortunately, the boatyard is very close, only a 5 or so minute trip. When we get there it looks just like the lift we couldn't fit in with the Leopard in Marathon. I have a quick flashback to that fiasco, but the selling agent confirms that the owner has used this lift on several occasions. We slowly work the boat into position and indeed it does fit...barely. We carefully move the boat into the lift's slip using ropes, poles, and a few fenders. Once again I pay to make a catamaran fly through the air. Unlike the bottoms of the other boats I've surveyed, this one was pretty clean so we forgo the pressure wash.  Jonathan gets out his trusty hammer and does the usual rapping on the hull, listening for the dull thud that indicates possible delamination or water intrusion. Other than one time he hit one of the few barnacles that took up residence on the hull, everything below the water line sounds good. That is welcome news.

We move on to the sea trial portion, which is done in the Ponce inlet since the waves were still in the 7 to 8 foot range just off the beach in the Atlantic...but I really didn't have time for a long sail anyway. Jonathan checks out the engines and finds that they were not producing the expected rpm and the transmission on one seemed to be slipping a bit when engaged. Ugh. There may be simple explanations for these issues...or expensive ones...clearly more investigation is required. We also found that the transmission cooler was leaking water into the bilge when underway...a fact that was confirmed when the very loud bilge alarm went off a few times during the trial (hey, at least the bilge alarm worked).

We quickly run up the sails to inspect them. The genoa looks fine, except the UV protection strip could use replacement. The main looks a bit strange to me as we raise it...seems a bit baggy like it isn't attached to the mast right. Jonathan and my broker both confirm that the sails cars (guides that attach to the front of the mainsail to the mast), specifically the ones at the batten locations, are missing. Really?!?!? The cars that are there are hanked on between the battens and this apparently isn't a typical configuration and may not be suitable for the mainsail.

There are issues with every propulsion option available to this boat...well, unless I get out on the transom and kick. Fortunately these are items that are not too serious and can be resolved...for a price.  The rest of the survey is uneventful.

Overall, the boat is in what I'm learning is just a little below average condition (or by the survey definition I'd call it "fair" condition).  There are a few more serious, safety related items but most are just the usual laundry list of issues found on used boats.  Being an ex charter, the boat is a little bit rougher than average on the cosmetic front but is mostly mechanically sound.  So, as we board the plane back to Denver we have some thinking and some research to do on repair costs while we await the official report from the surveyor. Not a lot of time though, the acceptance of vessel date fast approaches.

Going To See A Leopard - Day 2

My usual luck with weather from my aviation days seems to be following me to this new adventure. We awoke (several times during the night, in fact) to strong, gusty winds and angry seas...and we're on the 7th floor of a Daytona Beach Holiday Inn Express. The weather report was calling for sustained winds up to 20 knots with gusts over 40 and seas in the 9 foot range with small craft advisories. The wind was blowing off the ocean hard enough that our rental car, that was clean the previous day when we picked it up and was sitting on the opposite side of the hotel from the ocean, was now coated with enough salt that you could barely see through the windows. And we were going to do a survey and sea trial in this? That was the plan anyway.

Big waves on Daytona Beach, from the 7th floor.

Despite all of this, I was feeling better about the boat today than I was yesterday. I guess a little more sleep deprivation was just the ticket. I call my broker to query about the chances of meeting today's goals (expecting they were slim) and he said we would do whatever we can but it was ultimately up to the captain how far we would go. Can't say that I felt all that comfortable with the idea of a sea trial in these conditions, but I know how things can change and our flight back home is tomorrow evening so we have a very limited time window.

We all meet at the boat and the owners agent says the owner is not really comfortable with the idea of moving the boat today but would make the call later, after the part of the survey that could be done at the dock is complete. Jonathan goes about his checks and even goes up the mast for that inspection. Must be fun at the top of the mast in these winds.

By the time he is done with the checks he could perform at the dock, Jonathan had a moderate sized list of issues. And the wind hadn't improved any either, so no haul-out or sea trial was going to happen today. We review John's list and figure out a plan to do the haul out and sea trial before we have to hop back on a plane tomorrow evening. The list of issues on this boat is less than the previous Leopard (thus far). Many of the items we were aware of like the cosmetic issues with the exterior and the strange issue with the Corian counter top.

There were also a few surprises. A couple of the bigger ones were a transmission issue with one engine and a windlass that doesn't work going in the "up" direction (and i doubt the anchor needs help going down). There were also a number of other odds and ends that we didn't know about but seem to be common issues (such as non-functional lights and valves) on used boats.

So, while the boat is not quite in the condition I had expected, it is not bad. Of course, that could all change with the sea trial and haul out, but hopefully that will go smoothly...aren't we about due for some good luck anyway? Guess we will find out tomorrow.

Strike Two

Well, it doesn't look like we will be reaching an agreement on the Leopard 38 "Catzpaw" that we had under contract.  There is just too much work that needs to be done to this neglected boat to justify the price that the owner wants.

When we put the offer in on the boat we took into account the things we knew about that needed work plus a little for unknowns for a boat that has been obviously sitting neglected for a year or more. Tape on two windows and a hatch were obvious indications that they were leaking and needed to be rebed. Hull damage from what appears to be a scuffle with a dock.

Taped window and hatch

Impact with a dock?

We were told the house battery bank was not doing well and would likely need replacement (an understatement, they wouldn't hold enough charge to run the chart plotter alone). Various light fixtures were broken, one of the AC units didn't work, and there were other odds and ends that needed work. The gel coat was in poor condition from baking in the sun for a long time without so much as a wax, and the fact there was a marine sanctuary growing on the boat bottom made the neglect rather obvious. But despite all of this we liked the boat and were willing to give the boat the love it had been missing to bring it back to reasonable condition, so we took these factors into account and made an offer that we believed was more than fair given the typical price range for these boats is $150K ~ $175K.

Well, along came the survey and we found that far more than we anticipated was wrong.  There were 51 items listed in the findings and recommendation section of the survey. The diesel generator would not work and had enough wrong with it that the surveyor highly recommended replacement ($8K), The water maker that was supposed to be pickled but was not and pumps were inoperative ($5K), the windlass would not carry a load when we tried using it ($4K), and the electric winch was inoperative ($3.5K).  That's over $20k just to replace the top 4 items found during the inspection.  Add in the non-functional refrigerator, seized through hulls, various electrical problems and everything else that needed work and it came out to over $32K in parts and labor to replace everything that was found that we weren't expecting to find (the total refit cost we estimated was between $60K and $70K including these new items).

We decided that we would split the difference on that $32K, an offer our broker said was more than generous. Our hope was that we could do much of the work ourselves and perhaps repair or find used and serviceable parts to help lower the cost. We are also getting a bit tired of going through all of this process just for the deal to collapse and that has a bit of value itself.  So our broker went back asking for a concession at time of closing to cover half of the cost of the stuff we did not know about that was found on the survey.

I don't know if sellers have way too much emotion tied up in their boats that they can't see the true market value, if they are wearing the rose-colored glasses I mentioned in the previous post and see the boat as it was when they bought it and don't see how time and their neglect have reduced it's value (I think the listing from when the current owner bought the Leopard can be found here) or what the reasons are that some owners have over-inflated sense of worth of their boats, but in this case, the seller was only wiling to concede $5K.  That is less than 1/10th of what we believe the boat needs, one sixth of what it might cost to fix the items we did not know about and 1/3 of what we asked in concessions.  Needless to say, that is not going to happen. So much for being generous.

I'm starting to wonder if people selling their catamarans have been out baking in the sun too long (much like some of their boats). I'm also starting to feel a bit bad for my broker.  I know he put a lot of work into trying to make this deal happen and neither of us can believe that this is happening again. Well Pete, what did you once say to me..."they are always making plastic boats and another one is right around the corner."

And on that note, a new boat has come on the market that we might be interested in. The owner of the Tobago we saw during our last shopping trip has also reduced his price and, unlike this one, was an obviously well cared for boat. So, the shopping continues...

The Survey and Next Step

Finally got the survey report back on the Leopard 3800 we have under contract.  What was it that I said in a reply to a comment on the last post..."I don't think surveys ever come back with good news...just varying degrees of bad news".  Of course, this is really what you want in a survey...to know what the problems are.  After all you are probably viewing a boat purchase with those rose colored glasses that are coloring your view with all the anticipated fun you intend to have with it.

For those who aren't familiar with a survey report, I believe the reports are in a pretty common format as they are typically used to get insurance and financing on a vessel as well as telling you what condition it is currently in. There are typically sections for general information about the model of boat, one that describes the various compartments and systems, findings and recommendations, evaluation, and summary.  Oh, and we wouldn't be in America without the usual legal disclaimers. They can also have various appendices with additional information (I don't know if it is typical, but Jonathan usually includes a variety of pictures as well).

The particularly interesting sections are the "findings and recommendations" section, as it lists any deficiencies that the surveyor found in the boat and the "evaluation" where they come up with the estimated value and replacement cost of the vessel. The surveyor actually sent the "findings and recommendations" section a day early so we had a bit of time to research the issues and cost of repairs.

In a word, ouch.  We knew that there were some issues with the boat that we would have to address, and to a certain extent this is expected of any used boat (and probably, to a lesser extent, most new ones as well). We, of course, based our original offer on the items we knew about.  Well, the survey uncovered a pretty long list of other items that we had not anticipated. And the worst part, some of the items, such as the generator, are rather expensive to replace.  On the bright side, there don't seem to be any structural issues that make the boat unsafe, so it is all just a matter of the cost to restore the boat to working order.

This is where the whole boat buying process is a bit annoying.  When we first look at a boat we can look around but it is generally frowned upon to go around testing systems yourself (understanding some electrical setups alone need the owner to be present to explain it all).  So, some system issues just aren't found until the inspection.  But the offer takes place before the inspection, so you have to make assumptions about the systems.  Then, like in the situation we are in now, you have to go back and ask for concessions to the originally agreed upon price to cover these things that were assumed to be OK but are not.  And if we can't reach an agreement now, a lot of time and money has been wasted getting to this point.

And that is where we sit now.  Trying to determine what is fair to go back and ask the seller for.  It would have been nice if we had been told ahead of time that the generator, refrigerator, water maker, windlass, etc. were not working so the initial offer would have been more accurate.  We will now need to either reject the vessel or send a conditional acceptance of vessel with conditions that include a credit at closing. Boat buying can be a real emotional roller coaster.

Leopard 38 Survey and Sea Trial - Second Attempt

We didn't get back to the hotel in Marathon from our pre-sea-trial repositioning sail until around midnight. Fortunately, the rescheduled haul out wasn't until the afternoon, so we did sleep in a little bit. We checked out of the hotel just before 11 am and made our way back to Key West.

We met our broker, Pete, and briefed him on the prior days trip. He had been worried when he hadn't heard from us last night (until my 10pm text that we had indeed made it). I think his biggest worry was (since he knows I'm not one to put up with a lot of B.S.) that something might come up between me and the selling agent and some of her, shall we say, creative explanations. No worries Pete, I'm pretty sure I can restrain myself from pushing someone overboard...and we all got along fine (except for a couple minor spats between the selling agent and the hired captain).

We moved the boat over to the marina lift and...YES, it fits. We walk the boat into the lifts slip and up she goes.

Haul-out at twice normal speed.  This video has been stabilized by YouTube

to see the original shaky one (with out the wavy artifacts) click here.

Then begins the process of evicting the sea creatures from the boat's bottom.

Boat bottom or coral reef, you decide.

A "little" scraping and a pressure wash.

Not perfect. but way better.

After the cleanup, Jonathan does his inspection and sounding (tapping the hull with a hammer) looking for delamination and water penetration issues. It really is amazing what you can see with the boat in the lift straps that you cannot see when it is in the water...even the parts of the hull that sit above the waterline.

We did find one large patch in the forward hull that was of some concern, and a number of chips down to the fiberglass that will need to be touched up as well as some other odds and ends, but it was definitely more positive than our last hull inspection that sank that deal.

After the hull inspection, we put the boat back in the water for the official sea trial. Now one might think we got quite a sea trial the day before, but in addition to the sea trial being a bit of a test drive, it is also a chance for the surveyor to inspect the engines, sails and rigging under load. The winds were about the same as they were the prior day and we had seas in the 3 to 4 foot range and this made for a good sea trial. I was definitely a welcome change to see that the boat was able to do closer to half of the wind speed on a close reach with the cleaner bottom and no engine assistance. In fact, I was having enough fun with it that I was a bit disappointed when Jonathan said he was done and we could head back at any time.

Once we get back to the dock, there were a couple last checks that Jonathan had to perform.  He took oil samples from the engines to do an oil analysis* and to go up the mast to inspect the rigging.

By the time we are done, it is around 6pm on a Friday night. We very briefly talk about a few of the bigger issues with the boat, but to get the full report will take a little time and Jonathan needs to head back home.  Our AOV (Acceptance of Vessel - basically the last day I have to reject the purchase based on the survey, sea trial, and personal inspection) is tomorrow and there is simply no way I will have the report in that time.  So, the last thing we do is get with my broker to submit paperwork to the seller for an extension of the AOV so I will have time to review the results of the survey and make informed decisions.

And with that we begin our drive back to Ft. Lauderdale to check in to a hotel near the airport so we can make our early flight back home.  Yet again we fail to get to sleep before midnight...guess getting to bed early just wasn't going to happen this trip (well past the "cruisers midnight" that I assume will become part of our lives).

The AOV extension was accepted, now we just wait...impatiently...for the report from the surveyor. I know it will be a pretty long list, but hopefully not insurmountable.

*I know there is a great amount of debate regarding the usefulness of oil analysis...at least there is in piston aviation engines. If an engine is tearing itself apart the metal is often larger than what is caught in suspension in the oil.  I wonder if an oil filter inspection looking for metal would be a better option for surveyors to try (an inspection that is usually done in piston aviation engines).

Leopard 38 Survey and Sea Trial

So, here we are, our second attempt at a survey and sea trial on a boat that we think could be ours. We arrived in Ft. Lauderdale on what is starting to feel like a regular commute except it was at midnight due to flight delays. Drove to a hotel in Florida City (so we would miss the morning traffic through Miami) and spent a few hours trying to get some sleep. We then continued on to Marathon for the 9am appointment at the boat. Of course, in true Florida driving fashion, our plan to miss traffic problems failed as someone managed to close the Overseas Highway by wrecking their car somewhere between Florida City and Key Largo. In the time we have spent in Florida we have seen quite a number of single car accidents on straight, flat roads in good weather and knowing the stretch of Highway 1, assume a similar situation has occurred. I do hope the people are okay.  Hmm...new business idea...maybe I should open a driving school...

We arrive at the boat a little late due to the extended commute time and find our surveyor was already there (he apparently made it through just before the accident that detoured us). He briefs me on the issues found thus far; some through hulls don't work, some electrical issues including the generator, and a laundry list of other items in addition to the stuff we already knew about. Apparently the owner's broker had one engine running when he arrived so he couldn't do the usual cold start checks on it, and the other engine wouldn't start so they had to call for a mechanic. The mechanic came, found the somewhat hidden breaker in the engine compartment and made a temporary fix to the alternator, and we were good to go haul out the boat.

Marathon Boat Yard Lift

We head over to the marina in Marathon where we were scheduled to do the haulout. When we get there, we look at the lift and wonder if the boat will fit. We had called to verify it would, the selling agent claimed Leopard 38s (maybe even this particular boat) have been hauled out here before and we did see a Manta on the hard in the yard, so we slowly ease the boat toward the haul out slip thinking it will be close but will hopefully fit. Well, guess what...it doesn't fit. The selling agent "tries a little harder" and wedges the boat between the bumpers...hope she didn't just damage the hull.  Have we just wasted a trip down to see a haul out that isn't going to happen?

After some phone calls, the selling agent finds the closest marina that claims they can haul out this beamy cat...but it is in Key West (the next best option is in Key Largo). The seller's agent then tried to tell my broker that we would need to help cover the cost to reposition the boat...which Pete quickly dismissed. It is the current owner's responsibility to provide the captain for the vessel as well as the costs for the sea trial and movement to an appropriate haul-out location and the buyer's (my) responsibility to pay for the costs of the haulout and surveyor (as stated in the contract). After getting everything squared away, the agent and captain might just have time to sail the boat down for a haulout the next afternoon.

Since the only reason we were in Florida was for the survey and sea trial and we had nothing better to do, we asked if we could tag along for the sail down to Key West. Just trying to make a little lemonade from the lemons we've been handed. They agreed, so the captain grabbed some provisions (sandwiches and water) and did some checks and made the boat ready for a short coastal trip. The current owner also decided to come along. So, the 5 of us head off to Key West.

Have I mentioned that this boat had been sitting in the water but had not been sailed in quite a while?

If this is a dockline, wonder what the bottom looks like

My broker and surveyor as well as I wondered how successful this attempt to reposition a boat that had not been used in a while would be, but did agree that it would also be a great opportunity (and pretty rare chance in boat buying) to really get comfortable with the boat. When we started moving the boat, it left a trail of the aquatic life attached to its hull in its wake. Someone joked that we might need to get a permit for messing with a marine habitat in order to clean the bottom. It was one dirty bottom boat, a fact that was confirmed by the 8 hours it took to make the trip from Marathon to Key West with an average speed of just about 5 knots using both the engines and sails on a very broad reach.

Toward the end of the trip, when the captain was looking for a whisker pole that the owner once thought was on board, he discovered an asymetrical spinnaker sitting under some chain in the anchor locker. Other than a rust stain (no idea why it was stored there... but if you have a boat, remember that the appropriate place to store a sail is not under a rusty chain in an anchor locker...the chain does not need a multi-thousand dollar pillow) it was in good shape, so we decided to give it a whirl to expedite our progress. Between the bits of reef that we were slowly knocking off the hull and the light air sail (the captain and selling agent had a disagreement over the precise type, so we nicknamed it bigsail [pronounced bigs'l] because it sounded less pretentious that way), we did manage a little over 6 knots toward the end of the sail with winds estimated around 15 knots. We arrived in Key West just a bit before 10pm. I'm not exacly sure when we left, but estimate it was a 7 to 8 hour sail.

So around 10 pm, we start the drive back to Marathon to check into the hotel for the night. Looks like it will be after midnight before we have a room for the second day in a row on this trip. Tomorrow, the haulout and official sea trial will hopefully occur.

While the inability to complete the survey today is a disappointment, I do have to say that I really, REALLY appreciate that those working on my behalf have been so great in the face of these frustrations.  Both Pete my broker and Jonathan my surveyor have had to deal with this extra day for the survey.  The surveyor has an appointment so he has to drive back to Ft. Lauderdale and then return to Key West tomorrow afternoon.  My broker had to change his plans so he could spend the night in Key West.  And both have been there to cover my back when needed. Still can't say enough nice things about these guys.

Update: Unfortunately I can no longer recommend either the broker or the surveyor mentioned in the above post.

Here We Go Again

The offer has been accepted!  So, for the second time in my life I'm under contract on a sailing yacht.  Now, as I've learned, the fun begins.  Have to get everyone scheduled for the survey, haul-out and sea trial.

For the survey, I'll be using Jonathan Sands from Atlantic Marine Group again.  With our last experience using him, this was a no-brainer decision and I have confidence in his abilities. Since that first inspection, I've seen his name mentioned several times and it seems I do not stand alone in thinking he is a pretty good catamaran surveyor.

I still need to do a bit of research on the Leopard 38 as well.  I've typically done a lot of research prior to going to look at boats, but this time I was not as prepared as I was with the Lagoon or the Fountaine Pajot boats.

Amazing how the boat buying process seems to toggle between dead stop to full-speed ahead.

And This is Why You Do a Boat Survey

In my last post I wrote that we were under contract on a Lagoon 37.  Due to the unique nature of boat buying, here's a brief outline of the process for those that haven't experienced it.  You find a boat you like, agree upon a tentative price, and put the boat under contract.  Then the next step is to perform a survey (inspection) and sea trial (test drive).  Once that is complete, included in the contract is an Acceptance Of Vessel (AOV) date.  They buyer has the option to accept the boat, reject the boat, or possibly renegotiate based on the results of the survey.  Once the boat is "accepted" by the buyer, there is a closing and you own the boat.  That's how its supposed to go anyway (according to my understanding).

We just had the survey and sea trial on the Lagoon 37.  Until I set up the appointment, I figured these were two separate things, but apparently they are often done on the same day, particularly when you need to move the boat to the inspection location.  So, after interviewing a few surveyors on the phone, I selected one and we set up the appointment for the survey and sea trial.

We met at the boat and the surveyor started with his "cold" checks of the boat to test systems while hooked up to shore power before the engines are started. Then the engines were started, additional checks were performed and we motored our way to the boat yard for the haul out as the inspector continued to check things out en-route.

Once we got to the boat yard, we had the boat hauled-out (pulled out of the water) so we could power wash and inspect the exterior hull and below the waterline.  This is where the fun started.  Thus far the surveyor had a decent sized laundry list of items, but most of them were known or reasonably small in nature.  By hauling and pressure washing the bottom, he was able to find several items of potential concern with the hull and propulsion system.

Hull Impact?	Propeller
Hull Patch?	How did footprints get here?

After the hull inspection, the boat was placed back in the water for our return trip.  On this trip we took the boat to a reasonably-sized bay to run up the sails to inspect them and see how she sails.  While motoring from the yard to the bay the captain was having difficulty keeping the boat in position as we waited for bridges to open.  Now I'm really not experienced enough to say if the issue was mostly mechanical or pilotage, but the combination of the two was adding to my concern about the condition of the boat and the safety of the remainder of this trip.

The selling agent did convince me to proceed with the sea trial so we continued to the bay and raised the sails.  We had about 10 knots of wind, and the Lagoon 37 did sail pretty well.  We didn't spend very much time under sail as we wanted to make the next opening of a scheduled bridge but it did tack nicely.  We dropped the sails, made the scheduled bridge opening and ended the day with a less than graceful reentry into the boat slip.

Based on the experience and result of the survey, we decided the boat would be much  more work than we were willing to do for our first boat so we decided to "reject the vessel" (inform the seller in writing prior to the AOV date).  It's a bit of a disappointment, but far better to have found out the issues now than after the purchase.

We also found what I think is a good and honest surveyor in Johnathan Sands of Atlantic Marine Group.  While he is based in Ft. Lauderdale, I believe he will work anywhere within Florida...and probably farther.  Give him a call if you need a thorough boat survey.